xAP Talk Transcript 2007 02 06

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14:43:28 * KevinH joins My room
06/02/2007 14:43:28 * quit (timeout)
06/02/2007 14:43:37 ‹KevinH› Back Later...
06/02/2007 14:55:28 * James joins My room
06/02/2007 15:09:16 ‹James› hi
06/02/2007 15:30:29 * Gregg joins My room
06/02/2007 15:31:07 ‹James› ahh, just typing an email to you
06/02/2007 15:31:19 ‹Gregg› Hi James
06/02/2007 15:31:22 ‹James› we can chat about vpstn then!
06/02/2007 15:31:39 ‹Gregg› Great!
06/02/2007 15:32:20 ‹Gregg› It's not clear to me how SB treats VPSTN different from PSTN other than the default dialler rule that you mentioned in a prior message
06/02/2007 15:33:43 ‹Gregg› And, since I seem to be running a question marathon recently... is it possible to affect the contents of the message that Fore/SB returns when asking about recent calls?
06/02/2007 15:33:44 ‹James› SB doesn't know what VPSTN or any other network type does. It's just a label which it matches against possible diallers when makeing a call
06/02/2007 15:34:27 ‹James› not yet what kind of change are you looking for?
06/02/2007 15:34:47 ‹Gregg› ok--so it doesn't do any sort of line "capacity" kind of rules that might allow a "busy" VPSTN line to still be used since most VPSTN lines have a largish number of "trunks"
06/02/2007 15:35:09 ‹Gregg› I'd like SB/Fore to also return the line label so that I know which line the caller called in/out of
06/02/2007 15:35:39 ‹Gregg› Given you answer, should I assume that there's very little real (current) use for mydb.txt (for Fore)?
06/02/2007 15:35:55 ‹James› if a line, int he sense of a xap source+subaddress, is free then it will be available to dial. Any line that reports busy won't show
06/02/2007 15:36:30 ‹Gregg› Could that logic be changeable for VPSTN lines?
06/02/2007 15:36:37 ‹James› so your trunk lines could in theory never report busy. and they would keep showing
06/02/2007 15:36:41 ‹Gregg› my outbound VPSTN lines literally have no limit
06/02/2007 15:37:19 ‹Gregg› ok--so, I should (in axc) just always report "free" for all of my VPSN lines--right?
06/02/2007 15:37:25 ‹James› 'busy' really means no capacity rather than in use, in the voip world
06/02/2007 15:38:13 ‹Gregg› ok--I was about to also incorporate logic that would indicate that a line is "down"--which is different from busy. Does such a state exist (wrt the schema)?
06/02/2007 15:38:58 ‹James› not sure, Kevin is probably a better one to ask on that. Alot of the design came from his work on xAPTel
06/02/2007 15:39:30 ‹Gregg› ok--but, from a SB perspective, SB only cares about "free" or anything else--right?
06/02/2007 15:39:32 ‹James› also I suppose your * lines should report iax2,sp, in the dialler line
06/02/2007 15:39:49 ‹James› sp=sip
06/02/2007 15:40:10 ‹Gregg› ahh--yes--given that SB doesn't have any semantic knowledge of the dialler value
06/02/2007 15:40:24 ‹James› in the make a call screen then only 'free' is displayed. On the lines screen any state will show
06/02/2007 15:41:02 ‹James› and you cuold be calling a sip address/ IP or whatever you can throw at * whichis quite alot
06/02/2007 15:41:33 ‹James› back in 1 sec
06/02/2007 15:42:39 ‹Gregg› ok--that makes sense. So, for your return.... I'm still somewhat "stuck" w/ using the existing SB for dialing if I have any dialler other than PSTN--due to the default assumption for the contact or call record--right?
06/02/2007 15:42:49 ‹Gregg› i.e., the "line affinity" idea?
06/02/2007 15:43:37 ‹James› unless the call is from the call log
06/02/2007 15:44:02 ‹James› those have the network information from the original call
06/02/2007 15:45:25 ‹James› the syntax is /call.xsp?CL=<number>&NT=<network> if you want to test things btw
06/02/2007 15:45:47 ‹Gregg› hmmm... ok--I can understand that. Since I'm using asterisk and "VPSTN" is equally able to handle "PSTN" calls, this makes me think that my real policy should be to treat all "PSTN-line" lines as PSTN and separately decide whether they should always report free
06/02/2007 15:46:10 ‹Gregg› ok--thanks for that syntax.
06/02/2007 15:46:48 ‹Gregg› So, do you think you may eventally add a "dialer" preference for each phone entry in the contact record?
06/02/2007 15:47:06 ‹James› already working on that
06/02/2007 15:47:41 ‹James› as for outlook then feel free. It really is just an extension tot he contacts database. So work in a very similar wahy to contacts already in there
06/02/2007 15:47:42 ‹Gregg› Ok--not trying to be pushy; just trying to decide whether I needed to work on some work around.
06/02/2007 15:48:27 ‹James› well floorplan and the intranetlauncher and now done, just on test for a while so i have a little window of time ;-)
06/02/2007 15:50:13 ‹James› I also need to work on the STDs . So witha US number there is a local number, a state number and a internation syntax. Does each number start witha certain digit?
06/02/2007 15:50:14 ‹Gregg› ...back to Four... is it's functionality intended to be extended to other apps? i.e., do you have any plans on exposing it's "API" (or howeever it gets its info)?
06/02/2007 15:50:33 ‹Gregg› oh, yes---STDs...
06/02/2007 15:50:55 ‹Gregg› wrt STDs--no
06/02/2007 15:51:41 ‹James› I'm trying to add Four interfaces to all my apps. It is using a simple http get query so I could a generic link to other apps option.
06/02/2007 15:52:09 ‹Gregg› they're all 10 digit--if that helps at all. However, that does remind me that I will be using some "PBX" numbers and possibly SIP URL syntax. So, it would be good if the STD parsing isn't mandatory (i.e., could be shut off)
06/02/2007 15:52:15 ‹James› I then need to detail the interfaces added tot eh apps so you could use them for something else
06/02/2007 15:52:34 ‹James› just empty the db for now
06/02/2007 15:52:43 ‹Gregg› ok--I'm gaim for that (Four); so, let me know once you have something
06/02/2007 15:52:55 ‹Gregg› ok (wrt SB and STDs)--that easy enough
06/02/2007 15:54:17 ‹James› If you do use Four a bit could you let me have , edited as needed, the contents of unknownquestions.txt Having some data on different questions helps train it
06/02/2007 15:55:32 ‹Gregg› sure--although, it would be good if there was some means of knowing how to send it a "partial" question and it spit back out questions that are "similar". Otherwise, I try to pour over db.txt to understand the syntax rather than just guess
06/02/2007 15:56:16 ‹Gregg› ...back on SB and the values it sends in CID.Lookup. I thought that I saw "location" embedded in the name value delimitted by parens.
06/02/2007 15:56:41 ‹Gregg› e.g., Name=James (home)
06/02/2007 15:56:48 ‹James› i do what to add that kind of helper function to Four
06/02/2007 15:57:28 ‹James› that's from the number. It's looked the contact up and seen it fromeither home or home2's numbers
06/02/2007 15:57:44 ‹James› (work) and (mobile) are possible too
06/02/2007 15:57:52 ‹Gregg› Right, but you already have a separate Location=home value--right?
06/02/2007 15:58:13 ‹Gregg› I'm only asking because I was thinking about creating a CID.Listener in mh to drive my TTS logic
06/02/2007 15:58:21 ‹James› Location= is from the address as in actual location
06/02/2007 15:59:09 ‹Gregg› oh--I see. Ok--I'll just parse it out. Are any other values embedded?
06/02/2007 15:59:58 ‹James› (Car),(Mobile),(Home),(Work)(Primary)
06/02/2007 16:00:13 ‹James› can'tr remember what primary was though
06/02/2007 16:00:33 ‹Gregg› back to four--the first app that I would consider adding "four support" to would be zmxap. That way I could ask it for recent alarms and it would spit back the monitor and the URL which could be launched from w/i the jabber client
06/02/2007 16:00:36 ‹James› SB's database is based on a layout from Outlook
06/02/2007 16:00:49 ‹James› oooooo nice feature
06/02/2007 16:01:10 ‹Gregg› ok--and, speaking of which, it must be outlook 2003--not 2002 for the plugin--right?
06/02/2007 16:01:52 ‹James› yep, i've yet to install a 2002 to try a build against it. It will only work with 2003
06/02/2007 16:02:10 ‹Gregg› ok
06/02/2007 16:04:35 ‹James› oh, I also am think of adding to to Four the concept of a person. Then using data from Jabber and switchboard give some kind of presence info for each person. I hopefully would give a home/away bsc device for each family member
06/02/2007 16:04:55 ‹James› wow my typing is getting worse
06/02/2007 16:06:08 ‹Gregg› ok--so, how would four know whether I'm in my home office, or outside of the home? Would it assume that I would be connecting w/ different JIDs?
06/02/2007 16:07:50 ‹James› yes different JIDs but then taking occupancy data from peoples PCs and bluetooth presence from phones as well. I'm reallly just thinking of it pulling in as much data as possible to 'guess' where every one is
06/02/2007 16:08:33 ‹Gregg› ok--so, four is doing the info/sensor integration--not relying on getting some info locally via the jabber client
06/02/2007 16:09:19 ‹James› it'll take any info available
06/02/2007 16:09:45 ‹Gregg› btw: I'm liking the jabbot/Four combo so much, I'm going to look for a WM5 jabber client--hopefully, w/ macros--otherwise, will use some other macro text insertion tool
06/02/2007 16:10:15 ‹James› I use agile messenger on my phone. works really well
06/02/2007 16:10:29 ‹Gregg› Great--I'll take a look
06/02/2007 16:11:22 ‹James› We really must get you zoneminder code in the main distro btw.. It is quite easy to miss now from the website
06/02/2007 16:12:06 ‹Gregg› you referring to the zoneminder source? or, some other "package"?
06/02/2007 16:12:56 ‹James› the mandriva cd,
06/02/2007 16:12:59 ‹Gregg› I don't see Agile Messenger's site mentioning jabber. I assume it is jabber compliant?
06/02/2007 16:13:31 ‹James› yep, I only use it to talk to wildfire
06/02/2007 16:13:49 ‹Gregg› oh--ok. I haven't every used packaged distros. I'll take a look at how it goes together and approach the distro manager
06/02/2007 16:14:08 ‹KevinH› Back ... just reading the history....
06/02/2007 16:14:11 ‹James› might be worth doing the same with trixbox too
06/02/2007 16:14:11 ‹KevinH› Hi both
06/02/2007 16:14:16 ‹James› Hi K
06/02/2007 16:14:25 ‹Gregg› Hi K
06/02/2007 16:15:17 ‹Gregg› Yeah--trixbox sure likes to overcomplicate dial plans. I've been trying to avoid it at all costs
06/02/2007 16:15:50 ‹James› it's a great start for * newbies though
06/02/2007 16:16:01 ‹KevinH› VPSTN was a moniker for a carrier that could carry either VOIP or PSTN calls btw
06/02/2007 16:16:17 ‹KevinH› allowing you to know you could redirect a PSTN call to it ok
06/02/2007 16:16:48 ‹James› The though was that dialler=PSTN,SIP,IAX would be better
06/02/2007 16:17:00 ‹Gregg› Ok--that was consistent w/ what I thought. But (and James jump in if I'm wrong), that's not how SB treats it since SB is doing exact match
06/02/2007 16:17:37 ‹KevinH› Ah maybe it was in teh dialler bit too - gosh this was years ago...
06/02/2007 16:18:06 ‹James› yes xSB is treating VPSTN and PSTN a different. More logic needed :-(
06/02/2007 16:18:16 ‹James› a very long time ago indeed
06/02/2007 16:18:33 ‹Gregg› Well--I can live w/ it as is; but, it just means that I ought to explain a "useful" policy to axc users
06/02/2007 16:19:07 ‹James› oh and we need to agree on Dialler= or Dialer=
06/02/2007 16:19:22 ‹Gregg› what I'll probably do is add logic in that converts VPSTN to PSTN, but always force the line state = free for VPSTN. That would make it functional wrt SB
06/02/2007 16:19:35 ‹Gregg› I'll comply w/ the non-US spelling ;)
06/02/2007 16:19:40 ‹James› yes
06/02/2007 16:20:01 ‹KevinH› Also for VOIP I always advertised a 'free' line - toa llow unlimited outgoing calls (or perhaps restricted to a certain number). SB selected this line but we moved the call to another line and placed teh outgoing call leaving the original line still showing available and free
06/02/2007 16:20:04 ‹Gregg› since, there is also a precedent for dialled
06/02/2007 16:20:19 ‹James› as in the Non US English settin you get in some apps
06/02/2007 16:20:56 ‹KevinH› Something else you spell wrong in the US ;)
06/02/2007 16:21:04 ‹KevinH› :-P
06/02/2007 16:21:16 ‹Gregg› laziness causes letter drops
06/02/2007 16:21:30 ‹James› I was watching a coyboy film yesterday and realised
06/02/2007 16:21:41 ‹KevinH› is that like lazyness ?
06/02/2007 16:21:48 ‹James› They drive on the left
06/02/2007 16:22:12 ‹James› made me giggle
06/02/2007 16:22:31 ‹KevinH› Sp they were made in teh UK ?
06/02/2007 16:22:49 ‹James› it was a proper John wayne one
06/02/2007 16:22:50 ‹Gregg› ... just got off very snow-covered roads. People were driving on all the lanes--some upside down
06/02/2007 16:23:11 ‹KevinH› Thought our only cowboy came from Rochdale
06/02/2007 16:23:23 ‹KevinH› Where do you live Gregg ?
06/02/2007 16:23:49 ‹Gregg› In Ohio (US)--close to Cincinnatti
06/02/2007 16:24:10 ‹KevinH› IS that close to New Albany ?
06/02/2007 16:24:50 ‹Gregg› Not really. ... depends upon your definition of "close"
06/02/2007 16:25:53 ‹Gregg› ... back on xAP stuff... I keep hearing about a .net 2 framework in progress--is that fact or fiction?
06/02/2007 16:26:16 ‹KevinH› BTW xAPTel for me is something I'm probably not going to develop much more - so if either of you want the VB6 source (to fork) you're welcome... I'm happy to make minor changes if you need though
06/02/2007 16:26:28 ‹James› fact
06/02/2007 16:26:34 ‹KevinH› It's real :-)
06/02/2007 16:26:45 ‹James› Edward's working on it
06/02/2007 16:26:56 ‹Gregg› so, real == available or ....?
06/02/2007 16:27:28 ‹Gregg› or, should I just send him a note?
06/02/2007 16:27:51 ‹James› ask nicely
06/02/2007 16:28:39 ‹Gregg› I'll use my best UK facade
06/02/2007 16:28:55 ‹James› I have Viewer and hub, so it really does exist but i know he was working more on some of the viewer functions
06/02/2007 16:29:04 ‹KevinH› Are the versions of the hub and Viewer that will support extended UID's .net 2 ??
06/02/2007 16:29:20 ‹James› i thought they were
06/02/2007 16:29:32 ‹KevinH› or just with the restrictions taken out of the original code ?
06/02/2007 16:29:40 ‹KevinH› I dont know how to tell
06/02/2007 16:30:10 ‹Gregg› ok--and, perhaps a question for you K--is there any more "advanced" light-oriented schema?
06/02/2007 16:30:20 ‹James› it was made in VS2005 which i think is .net2 only?
06/02/2007 16:30:23 ‹KevinH› I think he uses VS2005 and that will only create .net2 assemblies wont it ? (without a kludge)
06/02/2007 16:30:26 ‹Gregg› That addresses things like ramps, scenes/links, etc.
06/02/2007 16:30:59 ‹Gregg› You can build .net v1.1 in VS2005; but, yes--nornally .net2 assemblies
06/02/2007 16:31:20 ‹KevinH› ramps..scenes/links ?
06/02/2007 16:31:55 ‹Gregg› Doesn't your C-bus have more sophisticated lighting controls other than on/off?
06/02/2007 16:32:22 ‹Gregg› And, if so, what schema do you use to control it?
06/02/2007 16:32:34 ‹KevinH› Ahh .. I have a 'lighting' schema as well as BSC - and that includes ramps and scenes
06/02/2007 16:33:06 ‹Gregg› Is that schema public? and/or suitable for non-Cbus?
06/02/2007 16:33:06 ‹KevinH› In fact I shouldpublish it really...
06/02/2007 16:34:38 ‹Gregg› Would you be willing to share what info you have on it (privately is fine) so that I can get a sense for whether it will be sufficient for my needs?
06/02/2007 16:34:42 ‹KevinH› It does not do 'scenes' and 'groups' in a xAP protocol way though - meaning we have a few proposals flyinga round that cover handling 'groups' and 'scenes' in teh xAP protocol using header items
06/02/2007 16:35:21 ‹KevinH› Sure... what application are you going to be using it for ?
06/02/2007 16:35:48 ‹Gregg› I'm considering creating an Insteon gateway--hence my question about the .net2 framework
06/02/2007 16:36:40 ‹KevinH› Ahh ok - well we should talk - teh reason it never really made it was that Edward has been working on his own Dynalite one too and we meant to co-ordinate before publishing
06/02/2007 16:37:08 ‹Gregg› scenes would have to be addressed though--so, I'll just need to go w/ something considered to be the most "mainstream" and be willing to change later once an official position is taken
06/02/2007 16:37:52 ‹Gregg› ok--well, that's my next area of considerable interest.
06/02/2007 16:38:10 ‹KevinH› In fact - it was pre BSC and so most opf my control now I do using BSC and I add a ramp command into a standard xAPBSC.cmd message - I was even thinking of removing the 'lighting' one but it should be there if we have more systems to include
06/02/2007 16:38:54 ‹KevinH› I started with a C-Bus schema really and then abstarcted ita little but it's still maybe a little C-Bus centric
06/02/2007 16:39:03 ‹Gregg› Yes. Since scene issues aren't just about turning them on/off, but also implementing the link membership management
06/02/2007 16:39:26 ‹KevinH› How are scenes activated on Insteon - does each one have a number or name ?
06/02/2007 16:39:41 ‹Gregg› yes
06/02/2007 16:39:54 ‹KevinH› and can you ask teh insteaon network to tell you which members are ina given scene ?
06/02/2007 16:40:09 ‹KevinH› (you cant on C-Bus)
06/02/2007 16:40:44 ‹Gregg› I believe that the controller can be interrogated. But, I would also want to be able to actually perform scene member add/delete via the xAP controller--not some separate process
06/02/2007 16:41:09 ‹KevinH› A 'channel' (dimmer) doesnt know what scenes it is in on C-Bus - ie you dont add that info to teh channel
06/02/2007 16:41:31 ‹Gregg› The Insteon devices do know
06/02/2007 16:42:34 ‹KevinH› you create a scene as a 'macro' really within any scene controller on C-Bus - indeed a scene can be split across several devices - then when teh scene trigger arrives the 'controller' runs the membership macro effectively setting each load to its expected state sequentially
06/02/2007 16:42:39 ‹Gregg› So, is the general "plan" to use BSC for the routine on and off and then some other "light" schema for everything else? Or, would the lighing schema also address on/off
06/02/2007 16:42:55 ‹KevinH› BSC is a subset of teh lighting schema
06/02/2007 16:43:19 ‹KevinH› On C-Bus I can't create scenes from my controller :-(
06/02/2007 16:43:49 ‹Gregg› ok--so, I can get started w/ using BSC and hope to coordinate w/ you and Edward re: the new lighting schema
06/02/2007 16:44:32 ‹KevinH› I can 'drive' scenes in much teh saem way as C-Bus really does but they dont sit in the C-Bus controllers so if my gateway is awol then teh scenes fail (Clipsal dont provide this level of access to their protocol)
06/02/2007 16:45:14 ‹KevinH› I will send you what I ahve and I think you should then 'superset' it to add features that you have available that i unfortunately dont
06/02/2007 16:45:54 ‹Gregg› ok--if you don't mind, I'll keep you in the loop on any "supersetting" as they should be abstract and not Insteon-centric
06/02/2007 16:46:19 ‹KevinH› MIne basically just adds two ramp styles , a scene command and a scene consistency indicator ( are all members of the scene still in their expected state)
06/02/2007 16:47:02 ‹Gregg› ok--that's definitely good for a start
06/02/2007 16:47:37 ‹Gregg› well--hate to run, but must go shovel snow before daylight is gone
06/02/2007 16:48:09 ‹KevinH› C-Bus uses several standard ramp rates but they are fixed as a time between 0-100% eg if you ask for a rate between 50%-0% it will complete in half of what you expect (1 sec)
06/02/2007 16:48:11 ‹James› (st) well enjoy yourself then ;-
06/02/2007 16:48:40 * Gregg quit
06/02/2007 16:49:04 ‹KevinH› So I ahve a second rate parameter taht cuases the gateway to calculate teh best available rate based on current brightness and end brightness
06/02/2007 16:49:09 ‹KevinH› blast.. gone
06/02/2007 16:49:27 ‹KevinH› .
06/02/2007 16:49:27 ‹KevinH› .
06/02/2007 16:49:29 ‹James› your long sentences again
06/02/2007 16:49:41 ‹KevinH› Hi again J..
06/02/2007 16:50:17 ‹KevinH› I was looking at this site this evening.. is it familar at all ??
06/02/2007 16:50:44 * KevinH joins My room
06/02/2007 16:50:50 ‹KevinH› http://www.the-gordons.net/
06/02/2007 16:51:57 ‹James› nice house
06/02/2007 16:52:01 ‹James› not familiar though
06/02/2007 16:53:25 ‹James› should it be?
06/02/2007 16:53:37 ‹KevinH› I was trying to find something ... 1 sec...
06/02/2007 16:54:37 ‹KevinH› quote "It communicates with Homeseer and other computer systems using UDP datagrams and the Xap protocol."
06/02/2007 16:56:00 ‹James› where does it say that?
06/02/2007 16:56:09 ‹KevinH› It gave me a bit of a smile as I had gone to the site on a totally unrelated issue
06/02/2007 16:56:46 ‹KevinH› Click on TouchBase under the HA/HomeSeer menu
06/02/2007 16:57:50 ‹James› um, being thick, what HA/HS menu?
06/02/2007 16:58:40 ‹KevinH› Ahh sorry... click downloads docs and programs off home page and then menu on left
06/02/2007 16:59:33 ‹James› it's nice how xAP keeps cropping up
06/02/2007 17:00:00 ‹KevinH› it is .. I wonder if that app is worth looking into as I have a CF-01 here ... anyway...
06/02/2007 17:00:32 ‹KevinH› He's writtena new fron end for the Slim players which is how I ended up there
06/02/2007 17:00:55 ‹KevinH› call 'Fat Gooey'
06/02/2007 17:01:11 ‹KevinH› still early days
06/02/2007 17:01:28 ‹James› screenshots of teh cf101 look nice
06/02/2007 17:02:23 ‹KevinH› he has a HS plugin for CF-01 so not sure where teh xAP layer gets inserted
06/02/2007 17:02:42 ‹James› just a data layer between the untis
06/02/2007 17:02:51 ‹James› There is a UDP server that sits on the Homeseer system and mediates the conversation between the Touchbase client and Homeseer.
06/02/2007 17:03:32 ‹KevinH› and he's inplemented xAp there (?) - I had sort of assumed he'd used your plugin or teh mcs one
06/02/2007 17:04:09 ‹James› nope, it's another one!
06/02/2007 17:05:36 ‹James› oh, the new learning xFP seems to be working. I havn't been plunged into darkness yet
06/02/2007 17:05:47 ‹KevinH› he's done alot of work there.. on those screens - i'll drop him an email
06/02/2007 17:06:28 ‹KevinH› TBH I haven't had chance for a play yet ...:-( sorrry
06/02/2007 17:06:44 ‹James› np
06/02/2007 17:07:14 ‹James› I got an email from Ian the electrisave guy. say it i'll be a couple of weeks to the first versions
06/02/2007 17:07:21 ‹KevinH› I must ask you some HS Q's too -
06/02/2007 17:07:28 ‹KevinH› Yes I got that too
06/02/2007 17:07:39 ‹KevinH› Which ver u going for ?
06/02/2007 17:07:46 ‹James› usb
06/02/2007 17:07:53 ‹KevinH› right
06/02/2007 17:08:14 ‹James› i've run out of comports
06/02/2007 17:08:40 ‹KevinH› Someone else on UKHA about a year or so ago had a 'generic' wireless receiver that could decode all sorts of protocols - is that Ian too ?
06/02/2007 17:09:01 ‹James› pass
06/02/2007 17:09:29 ‹KevinH› sounds likely - I'll investigate